I'm sorry Mr. Laciner but I have to differ with you on some of the accusations you make about the United States in your article. Where do you come up with this notion that "Almost every day, news comes out regarding torture, rape, massacre etc. committed by the Americans in Iraq or Afghanistan" -- that has to be the most retarded allegation that I've ever heard. The only event that comes out day after day in Iraq and Afghanistan is the fact that some Muslim blew-up a bunch of innocent Muslims because he wants to be a myrtar. Are the media organisations in Turkey that bias that they skip will that story and make up rumours.

Abu Ghurayb is a blight on the American reputation but remember that it was the US Army that investigated, arrested, charged, tried, convicted and sentenced those soldiers involved. It should be a master class for the rest of the world for how good governance is the solution for bad deeds. How many soldiers in Islamic countries been charged with mistreating detainees, much less, torturing them? And frankly, at Guantanamo, those terrorists have clean sheets, pillows, medical care, prayer books, and 3 hot meals a day. That's more than you get at most Turkish resorts!

Why you need to wrap up the article with the comments of some presidential candidate is beyond me. It was so insignificant that you couldn't even quote the guy's name. I like to read articles from publications around the world, but I have come to the conclusion that the East don't look up to the West anymore because they realise how short they come up in comparison.

 <John.Thorpe@aems.net>

Your editorial is even-tempered and seeks a way out of the nationalistic
turmoil, that affects Turks, Armenians and Greeks.  The factor you are
seeking for, is called "emotional learning". Unfortunately, this is what is
transmitted to the next generations from the parents of the above
nationalities, and established with the books of "history", in the lower -
grade schools. Typical example, constitutes the first Turkish books of
history (after the establishment of the Turkish Democracy). In them, the
"twisting" of the historical facts, regarding the "ancient" Turks,
inhabitants of Anatolia, and generators of all European civilizations, is
prominent. [see writings of university prof. Millas, in Turkish] On the
other hand, only this year, the Greek students historical books, stopped
referring to the "Secret school" [that, young Greeks were thought secretly
by priests and monks the Greek language and history during the Ottoman
empire years), although, the truth is that no prohibitions were exercised by
the ottomans, regarding knowledge, at all.

Another interesting parameter you refer in to your article, is the
masochistic parameter, in the human psychological economy. Of course this
absolutely true; with the necessary adding, though, that it ALWAYS
accompanied, by its counterpart, sadistic parameter.

Manolis Malagaris, 2 May 2007

manouelm@hol.gr

I found Nilgun Gulcan's article, which argued using a NYT article that there were 200,000 Armenian Rebels in the Ottoman Empire, interesting however inconsistent with other arguments forwarded by the Turkish viewpoint that there was no Armenian Genocide. The quintessential Turkish Argument states that the number of Armenian dead during the 1915-1920 era are overstates because the number of Armenians living in the Ottoman Empire in 1915 are presumed to be much larger than they actually were. A more realistic figure argued by the Turkish side is that there were only something to the order of 800,000 to 900,000 Armenians.

Let's now take a look at Gulcan's argument. It is safe to assume that he too believes that there were only around 850,000 Armenians, lest he believe a genocide occurred. From this we have the following situation. 200,000 Armenian rebels from a total population of 850,000.The next thing that is important to take into consideration is demographics. From the 850,000 we must deduct 50% for women, and another 25% for children, the extreme elderly, and mentally handicapped. The remaining population of total able bodied men in the Ottoman Empire is thus, 315,000 or so. Therefore, according to Gulcan there were 200,000 rebels out of a total population of 315,000, or around 65%. Presently, the most militarized country on earth is North Korea, out of a total population of 23 million it has 1.08 million soldiers, or 4.5% of the toal population(wikipedia: North Korea). Furthermore, In order to maintain this level of armament North Korea must spend nearly a quarter of its GDP on the military (wikipedia: Korean People's Army).Armenians were known for the wealth they acquired before 1915, therefore it is unlikely that they spent anywhere near 25% of their collective GDP on arms.  This is true, even if one takes into account foreign assistance from the Russian Empire and Persia, or the fact that some Armenians may have only been part time "rebels." Thus, it is safe to say that the figure of 200,000 rebels is many orders of magnitude larger than it possibly could have been. Even if we accept a rebel percentage of 10%, still enormous when compared to any other military force, the number of Armenian rebels could not possibly exceed 31,500 men.

In conclusion, Gulcan must accept that either there were many more total Armenians in the Ottoman Empire before 1915, thereby rendering a total death count close or above the genocidal level of one million, a number held by most of the world. Or that the number of Armenian "rebels" is much fewer than 200,000, a maximum number not likely to have exceeded 35,000. In any case, the Turkish view is severely undermined.

Mr. Wally Sarkeesian's Open Letter to Dr. Sedat LACINER: On Laciner's article "The Armenian Bill in France Parliament"


"It is apparent from your article, "The Armenian Bill in France Parliament" that the financial retribution you are most worried about is not Turkey's recognition of the Armenian genocide. Since I am not a historian but simply the son of survivors, allow me to venture off the political spectrum for a moment. Both Christian and Moslem countries throughout the past centuries have committed horrific crimes including genocide however, the response to the crimes have been quite different. Firstly, Christian Germany committed crimes against the Jews and various other "minorities." They have not only recognized this as a genocide but have also compensated the Jewish community with hundreds of billions of dollars. In fact, Israel would not have come into existence without Germany's financial support.

Secondly, Moslem Turkey is playing this ridiculous game of denial, distorting of facts and threats of boycotting the countries who recognize the Armenian genocide. In fact, if it was not for Christian Europe, and the Christian United State of America, the Turkish economy would totally collapse. Therefore I ask the Turkish government, how many countries can you afford to boycott?

On top of all this Turkey is still begging to become a member of the EU. How interesting.

Let me provide you with yet another example of how religion continues to play the same role it did in 1915. When the USSR collapsed, Armenia and Azerbaijan conflicted about Karabagh. Turkey immediately closed borders with its Christian neighbor, Armenia, YET not a single Christian country has ever closed its borders nor have they boycotted Turkey or Azerbaijan. The problems we are facing with Turkey is its religious fanaticism. I hope you are aware that many Turkish citizens recognize and feel remorse about the tragic genocide that occurred at Turkey's hands but due to the government's lack of responsibility they are fearful of speaking out. I read Turkish online news papers I yet want to see single news paper use the word Armenian Genocide without attaching the word "so called Armenian Genocide" Turkey's courts are full of journalists and their only crime was mentioning the Armenian Genocide.

So please stop this convoluted, misleading and threatening propaganda you are projecting onto your audience. Be conscious of history and urge your government to do what the other respectable empires did, admit your crimes and move on. I hope you understand that the French boycott is entirely in vain. France has a GDP of $1.822 trillion (2005 est.), Turkey's boycott will not put a dent in the French economy, it will simply hurt the Turkish people. Moreover, there are over 10 million Armenians like myself living in Diaspora. Each and everyone of us has a story to tell about our mothers, fathers, and grandparents who were massacred, tortured and orphaned due to the massacre that took place at the hands of the Turks in 1915.

Remember the problem is not between Armenian and Turkish People it was not caused by Turkish people then therefore will not be resolved by Turkish people today it was done by government then it has to be resolved by Government today. In-fact the most older Armenian survivors that I had the opportunity to question them they tell hundreds of stories how there Turkish neighbors hide them in there farms in the day time and help them escape in the night to avoid the mass massacre by the Government then,

Again, I urge you to look at the historic actions of Turkey against the Armenians and ask yourselves, how much longer can we go on denying what is so plainly obvious. Denial is not the answer and you might even find that the Armenian community will be less hostile towards its victimizers providing the first steps to a more peaceful relationship."

Regards from USA

Wally Sarkeesian

In response to "Turks still rule Europe" by Turkish Chilli :

To the article: The spirit of Gallipoli and the Roots of Turkish Identity by Baris Sanli 

 i read the article in the journal of the turkish weekly and found some in
for you.

      The story behind this statue was this:-
There was heavy fighting between the Turks and the Allies. The distance
between the trenches was eight to ten metres.
A cease fire was called after a bayonet attack and the soldiers returned to
the trenches. There were heavy casualties on both sides. After the very
ferocious battle an incredible event occurred. A piece of white underwear
was raised from one of the Turkish trenches and a well built un-armed
soldier appeared.
Everyone was stunned and they starred in amazement. The Turk walked slowly
towards a wounded British soldier, gently lifted him in his arms and started
to walk towards our trenches. He placed him down gently on the ground near
us and then straight away returned to his trench. we couldn't even thank
him.
This courageous and beautiful act of the turkish soldier has been spoken
about many times on the battlefields. Our love and deepest respect to this
brave and heroic soldier.

First Lieutenant Casey (later to become Australian Govenor General 1967-71)
   http://www.nashos.org.au/anzac.htm

i was first told this whilst on holiday to your country 2 years ago and was
amazed. also the story was followed up by an incident wher turkish soldiers
were fighting bravely somewhere and were being abandoned by the allies.
however because of the prior mentioned, i think australians stood their
ground and supported your countrymen. sorry the latter a bit vague but both
incidents actually moved me to tears. any way best wishes
  j. maccorquodale

Original article @(Turkish Chilli: Turks Still Rule Europe) http://www.turkishweekly.net/baris.php?id=197

Dear Mr. Sanli,

quite an interesting perspective you offer in today's column...and you write many truths even if you are being sarcastic;

I am  a Cypriot, at least I grew up there; my father was Greek, born in Samsun and had to flee with his family from Turkey in 1923 for reasons I'm sure you're aware of; his mother was from Kessaria (Kayseri to you); my mother is Armenian, born in Cyprus from parents who did not come to Cyprus to enjoy its beaches and other delights and I'm sure you full well know the reasons for that too.

I grew up in the 50s and can truly say, with my hand on my heart, that I had no prejudices against Turks; my grandmother (the Greek one) in fact once scolded me when I made a derogatory remark about the sound of the Turkish language...you could imagine how upset she would have been if I had said something about the Turkish people; my Armenian grandparents, who had even more reason to 'hate'  Turks, actually never even talked about their past.

You see, my grandparents, all of them, including my parents are what you would describe as 'born again Christians';  Jesus and inter alia Christianity teaches two main things:

1. Love yout Lord your God with all your heart, with all your mind and with all your might
2. Love your neighbour as yourself.

A very simple message actually, no rules regualtions etc. Just LOVE

Look at the order in which these are and put them into practice and then how can you hate anyone?

You have to forgive the wrongs and move on.  What I state to my frreinds and acquiantances, is that I love the Turks becasue God reated them just the same as anypne else on this planet, what I disagree with is some of thier politics.  No nation is exempt from this type of critique.  However, one MUST be able to forgive.  This is what makes a big difference between Europe and Turkey; Turkey hs difficulty in dealing wiht its past.  We as Greeks or Armenians would in principle love Turkey to be in the EU as this would in many ways open up avenues for us in our 'motherland'  which otherwise at the present remain closed.

So dear Baris, nice to make your acquaintance and have a good day,

best reagrds,

P.P.-Tzaferis

It is apparent from your article, "The Armenian Bill in France Parliament" that the financial retribution you are most worried about is not Turkey's recognition of the Armenian genocide.  Since I am not a historian but simply the son of survivors, allow me to venture off the political spectrum for a moment.   Both Christian and Moslem countries throughout the past centuries have committed horrific crimes including genocide however, the response to the crimes have been quite different.   Firstly, Christian Germany committed crimes against the Jews and various other "minorities."  They have not only recognized this as a genocide but have also compensated the Jewish community with hundreds of billions of dollars.  In fact, Israel would not have come into existence without Germany's financial support. 

Secondly, Moslem Turkey is playing this ridiculous game of denial, distorting of facts and threats of boycotting the countries who recognize the Armenian genocide.   In fact, if it was not for Christian Europe, and the Christian United State of America, the Turkish economy would totally collapse.  Therefore I ask the Turkish government, how many countries can you afford to boycott? 

 On top of all this Turkey is still begging to become a member of the EU.  How interesting. 

 Let me provide you with yet another example of how religion continues to play the same role it did in 1915.  When the USSR collapsed, Armenia and Azerbaijan conflicted about Karabagh.  Turkey immediately closed borders with its Christian neighbor, Armenia, YET not a single Christian country has ever closed its borders nor have they boycotted Turkey or Azerbaijan.  The problems we are facing with Turkey is its religious fanaticism.  I hope you are aware that many Turkish citizens recognize and feel remorse about the tragic genocide that occurred at Turkey's hands but due to the government's lack of responsibility they are fearful of speaking out. I read Turkish online news papers I yet want to see single news paper use the word Armenian Genocide  without attaching the word “so called Armenian Genocide” Turkey's courts are full of journalists and their only crime was mentioning the Armenian Genocide.   

So please stop this convoluted, misleading and threatening propaganda you are projecting onto your audience.  Be conscious of history and urge your government to do what the other respectable empires did, admit your crimes and move on.  I hope you understand that the French boycott is entirely in vain.  France has a GDP of $1.822 trillion (2005 est.), Turkey's boycott will not put a dent in the French economy, it will simply hurt the Turkish people.  Moreover, there are over 10 million Armenians like myself living in Diaspora.  Each and everyone of us has a story to tell about our mothers, fathers, and grandparents who were massacred, tortured and orphaned due to the massacre that took place at the hands of the Turks in 1915. 

Remember the problem is not between Armenian and Turkish People it was not caused by Turkish people then therefore will not be resolved by Turkish people today it was done by government then it has to be resolved by Government today. In-fact the most older Armenian survivors that I  had the opportunity to question them they tell hundreds of stories how there Turkish neighbors hide them in there farms in the day time and help them escape in the night to avoid the mass  massacre by the Government then,

Again, I urge you to look at the historic actions of Turkey against the Armenians and ask yourselves, how much longer can we go on denying what is so plainly obvious.  Denial is not the answer and you might even find that the Armenian community will be less hostile towards its victimizers providing the first steps to a more peaceful relationship.

Regards from USA

Wally Sarkeesian
Senior System Engineer
Email: Wally@nstsupport.com

Dear Sarkeesian,

You are saying that you are the son of survivors. Interestingly most of the Armenian Diaspora in Lebanon, France, US, Canada and elsewhere are son or daughter of the survivors or survivors. It is really strangely. If the Turks massacred 1,5 million (even 2,5 million Armenians for some, how many Armenians left in 1915? It is strangely, because if the Turkish people could increase its population as the Armenians have done since 1915, Turkey’s population would have been about 350 million right now. I mean please re-calculate the Armenian population and be sure how many the Turks killed during the First World War.

Second, all killings are not genocide. There are many crimes. Murder, massacre, genocide etc. Turkish Government and majority of Turkish people accept Armenian killings. Even some Turkish historians accept that the number of killed Armenians was about 300,000. According to Turkish archive documents about 900.000 Armenians were forced to immigrate to another province of the Empire and about 200-300.000 Armenians were killed or died due to the natural reasons (bad whether, epidemic, famine and other war reasons). Turkish documents also say that more than 520,000 Muslims were massacred by the armed Armenians. Some historians increase the number to 2 million.

I respect your bad memories in Anatolia, and most of the Turkish people have no problem with the Armenian people. That’s why more than 70,000 Armenia Armenians prefer Turkey, not Armenia or diaspora, to live and work.

You accuse in your letter Turkey of being religiously fanatic and  you blame Turkey for closing the Armenia borders when Armenian forces occupied the Azeri territories. First you should keep in your mind that Turkey is a secular country and no Turkish politician accept such a claim. Second, even the OSCE and the EU clearly declared that Armenia is a occupier country in Karabakh and other Azeri towns. And it should withdraw from these territories. Turkey closed the borders not for the religious reasons or ethnic solidarity. According to Turkey and international law no country should and can change the existing borders by force. More than 1 million Azeris became refugees and they cannot return to their houses for more than 10 years. If you are the son of tragedy you should understand most these people. And if you are speaking about a genocide, you should understand most the Hocali Massacre (if not Genocide). It is really strange that Armenian people are very sensitive about the past tragedies but not the most recent tragedies. For example they can support Armenian terrorism against the Azeris and Turkey Turks. They never mention tragedy in Chechnya or genocide committed in Algeria and other Africa countries. They do anything for their own interests, but they never recognize any other ‘genocide’ for not to anger the great powers. Turkey stick keeps its territorial borders with Armenia, yet the airplanes carry thousands of Armenians to Turkey every week. I mean the air gates are fully open between these two countries. The reason for closed borders is not only the Karabakh and other occupied Azeri territories: Armenia does not recognize Turkey’s national borders and call Eastern Turkey as Western Armenia. Imagine, if Turkey does not recognize Armenia’s territories and if it claims all Armenia territories Turkish, how Armenia could establish neighborly relations with Turkey.

You wrote in your letter “Turkey's courts are full of journalists and their only crime was mentioning the Armenian Genocide”. It is not true. The only journalist now in court is Hrant Dink, and no one has any doubt that the verdict would be in favor of Mr. Dink. And I should remind that the reason is not mentioning ‘genocide’ term but insulting Turkishness. Turkey’s bookshops and libraries are full of pro-Armenian books. Many Armenian so-called genocide literature have been translated to Turkish languages and some Turkish professors defend the Armenian thesis in Turkey. Even Turkish State pay these lecturers in Turkish state universities. People from different approaches, including Taner Akcam can make debate on Armenian issue on Turkish TV and radio stations. And many people may defend opening the Armenian borders on TV and newspapers. There is highly lively debate on Armenians in Turkey right now and no body has been in prison for that. But it is now impossible to speak for a Turkish man or woman about Armenian issue in France, Armenia and Switzerland. Armenia Government even arrested a young Turkish historian. His only ‘crime’ was being Turkish. I think you have very wrong impressions about Turkey and we, as the JTW, invite you Turkey to see whether your perception is true or not. Don’t worry, Turks do not eat Armenians.

Finally, you say that Turkey deny. Turkey does not deny anything. Turkey rejects the Armenian claims. And say “if you are sure for your claims, we should discuss and find the truth”. However Armenia strongly rejected Turkey’s call to establish a history commission to search the claims. Turkey tries to explain its opinion about the issue but the Armenians try to silence Turkey and Turkish people all around the world. Armenians try to harm Turkish interests everywhere and they hope Turkish people may open the borders. Armenia is a very tiny country, has no importance for big Turkish market. Turkey does not need Armenia for economic reasons. But Armenia is surrounded by more than 100 million Turkish people (Turkey, Azerbaijan and Iran Turkish peoples). Armenia has no natural sources and no way to open sea. The past years proved that Armenia needs Turkey. Neither Russia nor the Diaspora can help Armenia under these circumstances. However the diaspora continues to abuse the past tragedies for its own identity problems. Diaspora attacks Turkey, and Armenia pays the price, and I have no doubt that the diaspora Armenians will continue their Armenian Cause till the last blood drop of Armenia Armenians. Why do not try to understand a EU member Turkey is crucial for survive of Armenia. The only country which can help Armenia is Turkey. Ter-Petrosian had realized this simple truth and he was solving the problems. That’s why Tashnak and Russians attacked and collapsed the Petrosian Government. Now Kocharian is only speaking about the genocide hate and always undermining Turkish interests in France, Canada or Netherlands.

Please think about it, if Turkish people and Government hate you and your nation, why they make great efforts to be friends.

Regards

JTW

"I hope you (...) never gain entry into Europe.

I hate you and your (...) people.

Dear William,

First Europe is not yours or your grand parents. More than 100 million Muslims and millions of other peoples from other religions and cultures live on this old continent. You say there is no difference between you and your ancestors in the the Dark Ages. I hope there is some.

JTW, 16 October 2006

Nothing new, nothing challenging

Just propoganda

Lilit.Badeyan@fco.gov.uk

Lilit Badeyan

Sir,

I cannot agree more with you.Turkey should stop trying to enter a club it does not belong because it is not a European country and there is nothing wrong with that !!

 As I said all along, the only"good" the crazy idea of admitting a non-European country in the EU has brought so far, is to antagonize Turks so much that they are now increasingly thinking of revenge against the West.

It is also highly insulting (and utterly stupid) to tell the  proud Turks  again and again that the only way they can achieve modernity and prosperity, is through the EU, as if the Turks did not have the ability in themselevs to do just that.

Japan is a higly democratic and wealthy country, and used to be a poor dictatorship. Is it a member of the EU ? Is South Korea trying to join the EU ?

Europe is a Christian club andit should be proud of that, just as Turkey is Muslim and should be proud of its roots as well.

Frederic Dodin

frederic.dodin@fr.abb.com

I recently read your article ( SHOULD TURKEY NOT ENTER THE EUROPEAN UNION)

As i read the article from your viewpoint i do believe that it would be better in many ways for Turkey not to enter the EU.

I find it frankly insulting to Turks that such poor countries such as Romania and Bulgaria would be preferred to enter the EU before Turkey would. I agree with all of your points except for one. Naturally as an Armenian i believe you would know which point i disagree with, but regarding all the economic points, i believe that the EU should stop playing games with Turkey.

Edgar Aroutiounian, U.S.

Dear sir,

I think you missundesrtand what the EU is about. The EU has never been designed to become  a tool to ease geopolitical tensions throughout the world  but to unify European countries, in a kind of United States of Europe (although a far looser federation)

Both the West and the Muslim countries have to find  other ways to tackle the threats posed by Muslim terrorism than accepting non European countries into the EU (otherwise why not accepting the most unstable country of them all, Iran ?). I am not saying that it is easy

The steady opposition to Turkey of European public opinion, which is completly and outrageously overlooked, is based on the inescapable truth that the Turks already living in Europe, do not mix with local communities and live in parallel societies (a large proportion of them in Holland or Germany do not even speak the language of the country they live in !!)
The question is then, how on earth can we integrate into Europe 80 million more Turks when we have s